Welcome And Nora’s Story

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to the Leadership Insights podcast with Co-Financial Group. I'm your host, Chad Co. Success in leadership isn't just about the decisions we make today, it's about the legacy we build for tomorrow. On this show, we talk to the leaders from around the country who are open to sharing their wisdom and insights to help us be better. Nora Bouchard is going to be our guest today. She's a successful executive and leadership coach, an appealing author, and an engaging speaker. She's inspired by her clients' desire to grow, and Nora provides practical insights and then intuitive questions to help them move them forward towards their goals that really matter. Nora sees what her clients can't see on their own. She specializes in helping leaders envision incredible futures. Then she guides them to achieve that vision through their own values and strengths. Her second book, The Hidden Metrics, A Coach's Secret to Success That Really Matters, targets newly promoted. And then the other book that she wrote is May Day, where she's asking for help in times of need. Today I welcome Nora to the show. Thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Hi, Chad. Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited about this.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Well, I'm excited as well. We have a lot to go over.

The Moment Coaching Clicked

SPEAKER_00 1:17

And as you know, one of the things I like to do is to be able to start with back, call it 10 or 15 years ago, as you're getting into the coaching and the executive space. How did you get here?

SPEAKER_02 1:28

Wow, that's interesting. So I actually saw a couple of master coaches do their stuff in a workshop. It's like a pre-conference workshop, lasted all day. And I was totally blown away. I watched them bring people up to the front of the room, coach them live. And in those moments, I knew those people, those guinea pigs, their lives changed in that moment. And they would never go back to being the way they were before because of how they shifted. And I just, I was like, oh, I gotta, I gotta do that. I I want to do that. It just really spoke to me. And you know, it's been fairly successful as a leadership and executive coach. So it it's it's really been a dream come true for me, actually, to be able to have that kind of impact with people.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

So with leadership insights, one of the things you just talked about is a master coach up on stage, and within minutes, they ask questions that pull out answers that change people's lives, that that wanted to go there and have change, but they didn't realize for sure that this is how the change was going to be started.

SPEAKER_02 2:44

Right, exactly.

What Coaching Really Changes

SPEAKER_02 2:46

They had no idea. And that's what coaches really do. I think we can define it in two in two key areas. One, we help people see what they're missing, because we can only see what's right in front of us right now. But when you have another partner working with you to help you see what else is there, then you see all sorts of options you didn't know about. And then the second thing that a coach does is we help you create new habits to make sure that those new observations stick and that you can start working with them successfully rather than kind of doing a haphazard gunshot approach. So that combination is incredibly powerful.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

So I feel like the same way, right? I use the abundant life roadmap and I take people through this roadmap, and then I like to hold people accountable for what they say. And you know, one of the easy ones, which is just even losing weight, there's a whole world out there where people are accountable to each other and they have to text each other every day their weight. Or there's an app out there where when you stop fasting, you have to push a button. It changes your behavior in ways you didn't even know that you could change your behavior because now you're accountable to a coach, you're accountable to somebody that cares.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

Yes. And it's that caring that I think is really, it's really important you don't feel like you're alone. You feel like you have someone in your corner cheering you on. And even if you, you know, fall off the horse, they're gonna help you get back up and on top again. So, you know, you're you're just never alone when you have a coach.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

When somebody's fallen off the horse, uh, first of all, it hurts because a horse is a lot taller than it looks. How do we get them to brush off the pain, get back up, like you know, Rocky does, which I've been watching uh over the weekend? How do you get back up? How do you encourage that? And then how long does it take for them to get back into the good habits that they used to have?

SPEAKER_02 4:56

Well, coaches are also keepers of the goals that you have set. So we don't let you forget what those are. We're gonna make sure that you stick with those goals, even when you're tempted to say, oh man, that stirrup is way too high. I can't get my leg up there. You know, we are going to say, Isn't this what you want? This is what you really want. And you decided you really want this. So let's get you back up there so you can go for what you really want.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

That's right. And eventually you get where you really want because now you're holding them accountable to the daily to-dos, you're holding them accountable to their calendar, and you're can you're reminding them of their values and their goals so that they could stay consistent with that.

SPEAKER_02 5:44

Right, exactly. And and I think even before values and even before the goals, I think it's important to look at what's meaningful, what is personally meaningful

Finding Meaning At Work

SPEAKER_02 5:55

to you. And I work with a model from a group called a meaningoflife.org. They're online and they define meaning in four different ways. They say that for people at work, these are the things that keep them coming back, that keep them successful, that keep them contributing. And one is being of service, another is personal growth and exploration. Right. Another is love. And this is probably the most important one. And people think love, love at work. Who talks about love at work? We don't talk about love at work. But love, honestly, honestly, a lot of people go back to work because they really enjoy the people they're working with, whether it's internal clients or external clients, or it's other people on your team, you feel this emotional connection. And I don't know how else to describe that other than saying it's love, that there is something there, and that is the most powerful of these ways that we find meaning. And then I always forget the fourth one. So I'm sorry, I'm gonna look at my own book and remember what that fourth one is because it drives me crazy every single time, and it's probably the one oh, expression. This is about being expressive, about having a voice, about feeling as though people are listening to what you have to say. Now, and it and it that's like the primary way in which it shows up, but it also might show up in how you write things, the reports that you do, or the presentations that you do. And at home, it might show up in what you do for fun, it might be art or poetry, or just being out in beauty. It's this self-expression that also keeps people connected to work.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

So, what I love about what you just did is you were completely and a hundred percent authentic about in the moment not remembering the word, which makes you lovable to the people that work with you, because I believe that the authenticism, authenticity, and being able to make a mistake or make an error is part of life that connects people to you. It was as if you did that as a play to do that. And and I'm a huge fan of the idea that in if you listen to Ralph Waldo Emerson, enthusiasm is the number one thing that helps you get where you want to go, and love keeps you doing it.

SPEAKER_02 8:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

And then the question is a lot of people don't know from love, they don't know how to find love, they don't know where love is, so they don't they don't they don't even know where to go to get it. But what we have to find out is how could you love at work? How could you love yourself? And how could you wake up every day being grateful and then gratitude, which is another guest I had, Scott Schmerin, says you wake up every day and you train the brain to be in gratitude by saying three things that you're grateful for.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

That's beautiful. I mean, really, it really is. And I think one of the things, the way that love shows up, and I see it when I'm working with my clients, is when I have a client who's maybe second guessing, do I stay here? Do I go look for another job around is the team that they're working with. They don't want to let go of those people, they don't want to let them down. They love them.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

So when we have here the hidden metrics are robust, precisely because they are personally meaningful to you, not your

Hidden Metrics Over KPIs

SPEAKER_00 9:45

supervisor, nor your peers, and not your squad. Hidden metrics are important to you. Share with us a little bit about that concept.

SPEAKER_02 9:53

So the premise of the book is that coaches often create secret goals with their clients at work. We might have been brought in by a sponsor, uh, you know, a president, vice president to work with somebody else, and they'll come at us with goals that are usually connected to KPIs or the PL statement. And those aren't necessarily the most inspiring goals that are out there. And so we politely, as coaches, we write down what those goals are and we we record them and then we set them aside because we know we'll get to them, but what has to happen first is addressing what is personally meaningful for the client, for the individual who's actually going through coaching. Because if you can do that, then engagement elevates, their interest in work elevates, their creativity elevates, all because they're excited, because they're working on something that is meaningful to them, whether it's love, expression, service, or personal exploration exploration. So it's, you know, everybody's gonna have expectations for you as a leader, especially if you're newly promoted, right? Your direct reports are gonna have ideas about what you should be doing. Your peers are gonna have ideas, your boss is gonna have ideas. We need to start with what's important to you first.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Which goes along with the fact that the focus on achieving what matters to you most, people have to take the time to be able to do that. And I believe they also need to be able to push back because I'm listening to a book right now where they're talking about the people at the company, they have to push back because some of the things don't make sense to the people that are the worker bees.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

Right, right. You know, uh this goes back to this whole idea is we can only see what we can see. And we need someone who's gonna help us see other things that we're missing.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 12:02

And if these goals come down from on high and they don't resonate with the people who are working with you or working for you, you're not gonna get anywhere with them.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:13

Or you're gonna spend an awful lot of time explaining yourself. So it's really important to focus on first you. What kind of leader do you want to be? Right. You know, for example.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

Well, so as we talk about the path of leadership success isn't paved with a profit and loss statement alone. And there's some actually managers and leaders and executives that only care about the PL. There's people out there that just care about money, and that's fine. But the question is, how are you as a leader communicating that to the people that work for you so they can wake up every day and be inspired to want to come in and and and put in the full day of work?

SPEAKER_02 12:51

Right. Well, one of the things that we know as coaches is that people don't do very well when they are intimidated or frightened or scared, that they actually do better when they're feeling confident and comfortable and supported. And that's where the creativity and the energy comes from. But if you're working for someone who is only focused on the bottom line, who's only thinking about money, they're more than likely going to be more fear-based in their decision making, in their motivation. They're gonna be, they're gonna be all about, hey, you need to do this or else. Or gosh, I was just working with a CFO this year.

Fear Shame And Asking For Help

SPEAKER_02 13:40

A company got acquired by a private equity group. And she was getting that message all the time from the new CEO. You know, this, this is, we need to hit this number, or your job is at risk.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

So, with that, I was with a Hall of Famer the other day, and he was speaking about the fact that we cannot be afraid to lose. Oh, yeah. We cannot be afraid to lose our job, we cannot be afraid to talk to people, we cannot be afraid, which is why I wrote the book, The Confident Leader. Because then there's secrets to being confident, which is to be able to ask questions and listen.

unknown 14:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

And then be able to be aligned with the people you're communicating with.

SPEAKER_02 14:31

Exactly, exactly. So most people are afraid of three different things. So they're afraid of being isolated and set aside. Like if I when I wrote May Day, I explored this whole idea of why don't we ask for the help that we need? Why don't we ask the questions that we need answers to? Why are we afraid to talk to people at senior positions? So one of the things that people are afraid of is they if they ask for help too often, they're going to be isolated, they're going to be seen as incompetent, they need to be set aside. Another reason is people are ashamed. They feel like they should know. Oh my gosh, I've just recently been promoted. So I must know everything I need to do in order to do this job. And that is so far from the truth. So people are worried about that shame. People are really afraid of looking incompetent, really afraid. They're also afraid about the cost. How much is this going to, you know, if I ask for help, what are they going to want in return? What am I going to lose because I do this? So setting aside those fears and replacing them with, you know, self-compassion, self-love, self-confidence really makes a difference.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

A plus. Every single day you have to be able to have your values, what's important to you, and what do you bring to the company, right? Because some people just bring to the company, I just want to make you money, or I just want to save you money. And that might be why you get hired, according to Brian Tracy, but it's not how you keep your job and that you're healthy. And so we have here what's the ask behind the complaint? And then the second one is when you're promoted, nothing changes, but yet everything changes.

SPEAKER_02 16:18

Right. So the ask

The Ask Behind Complaints

SPEAKER_02 16:20

behind the complaint, that's that's something that a lot of, in fact, I was just talking to a client about this this morning when I was coaching her, that she had someone, she's new to her organization. She's come in, she's reorganized, she's got a person working directly for her who's dragging his feet and complaining a lot to everybody else but to her, and whining about her, really sabotaging himself and her and her plans. And when people have complaints like that, what they don't get is that there is a hidden ask. There is a hidden request that you have not made. And you may be making it to all your friends and buddies at work, but unless you're making it to the people who can do something about it, it's going to go nowhere. So asking that question, being up front, saying, I'm not comfortable with this. Can we do this differently? Or what's your intention? Give me more information about where we're going. So that you're not out there whining and complaining. You're being proactive and taking control of the situation for yourself.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

So before we get to the books that I'm going to show here in a minute, what is it that you're doing that helps them create this change? Like how long does it take to create the change? When they come in and they see you, how do they even know to come see you? Because most people don't know that they have anything wrong with them.

SPEAKER_02 17:55

Right. And I actually I when I first started coaching a long time ago, it was about fixing people. Now it's not about fixing people, it's not about fixing what they're doing wrong. It's really about asking them where do you want to go? What do you want to create? What's really next? And then how long it takes. So it really depends on how complex the goal is. Like I had a client who was head of quality and compliance for a large pharmaceutical company. It took us a year to get him to where he wanted to be. But I have another client who's head of business

How Promotion Changes Everything

SPEAKER_02 18:40

development for her tech company. And we got that turned around in three months. So it really, it really depends on what it is you're trying to achieve.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

I think that's absolutely excellent. Uh, I'm gonna bring up here a couple of books that you wrote. So share with me, if you will, what what encouraged you to write these books?

SPEAKER_02 19:05

Well, May Day, it's a little bit older book, but I came about because I was a single woman realizing that I was I had created a life that I where I never had to ask anyone for help. And it got to a point where I actually did have to ask for help because I got sick. And I needed help, someone taking care of me at home for a while. And I didn't know how to go about asking for help because I had created a circle of friends who relied on me for help, not me relying on them. I had created work environments where people relied on me, not me relying on them. So I started really exploring this idea. Why don't we ask for help? And how can we do it in a way that's really self-compassionate and successful, where you don't feel like you're a pathetic sob asking for what you need. Hidden metrics came about because now, many years into my career as a coach, I realized that I have been doing this, creating these secret goals for a really long time now, really long time. And it has been probably the most personally satisfying part of my work. Helping my clients come up with these, helping them really define what's meaningful, define their vision for themselves, identify their values and their strengths, and then make it happen.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

So, what's your favorite part about the hidden metrics book? Because you have secrets to success. And do we not know what the secrets are? Like give us one or two of your favorite secrets that you could help people with overcoming and that will encourage them to want to buy the book on Amazon or the other suppliers.

SPEAKER_02 21:08

Yeah, so one section of the book is is all about hidden expectations, and these are the expectations that everybody has once you're promoted because you think you're not any different, but in fact, everybody starts seeing you differently. They start seeing you through the lens of your new title.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

Right.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

And so you need to recognize that your relationship to them is going to change. And I love what you said, Chad, about a little bit earlier about the real your relationship to yourself, how important that is to really define what that is and to see yourself as a person really holding on to that and embracing that new role. So, one of the first things is recognizing that your team is no longer your team. That the people working for you, you're not on their team. You're like Phil Jackson for the Bulls, right? I'm from Chicago, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:13

So everybody knows him.

SPEAKER_02 22:15

Phil Jackson for the Bulls. He wasn't on the team. He was the manager, right? The coach. He was not on the team. So one of the first things that you have to recognize when you promote is that you have a new team. His new team was composed of the other coaches and the front office. Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:38

So that's one of the first things. Another thing that you have to recognize is that you have to start seeing work differently. So instead of focusing on the day-to-day, now people are looking and expecting you to have a bigger view, a much wider view, a longer term view, and they want ideas to come from you. So it's not just about getting the day-to-day done and hitting those goals. That's what your direct reports are for. And I call that group the squad to differentiate from the team. So those are two. I think the third one is that you're going to have to find new ways of finding meaning and satisfaction in this role. Because if before you were the expert, the go-to guy, the firefighter, the fix-it guy, that guy, you're not going to be that guy anymore. You have to have someone on your squad take on that role. Your role now is very different. So really understanding how things you're still working for the same company, but literally you have a new job. You might as well be working in a different department. You really have to make that mental shift to have it happen. But in the book, I've identified 15 of these different shifts that we have to make.

Confidence Beyond Data And AI

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Wow. So, you know, I talk about a lot of times the meditation, the silence, the listening, the trust your gut. Like, right, we're put into a new role where people are coming at us with different conversations that we've never heard before. The question is now what do we do with it? And AI is nice, right? Everyone's going to AI and asking questions, but you know, it doesn't give you the answers to what's really going on for you because AI doesn't have a soul. It just has an answer. And what we both find is with a soul looking in someone's eyes, not texting or not emailing back and forth, is that you could really make a lot of headway quickly when you take the time to listen and listen to yourself.

SPEAKER_02 24:54

Yeah. Well, you know, and I'm sure you find this because you've written about confidence, this whole idea of people are very confident when they know stuff, right? They feel like they have all the data, the processes, the systems down in their head. But real confident comes from in here. And that's how a lot of CEOs can operate. They can't possibly know everything. But hopefully they've learned to connect with themselves and recognize what really is the right answer based on their life experience of confidence.

SPEAKER_00 25:34

Yeah. Do you do you work with people around the country or are you primarily just in Chicagoland?

SPEAKER_02 25:40

Oh no, I work all over the world, actually.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

So Okay, share with me a little bit about that, right? So what are some of the countries that you're working with? And then what's it like when in other countries as you're coaching them? Is it the same or different?

SPEAKER_02 25:53

Um, you know, it's

Coaching Worldwide And Staying Creative

SPEAKER_02 25:55

so right now I have clients, a client in Costa Rica, one in Mexico. I've had clients in Germany, the UK, Australia, the Philippines, Malaysia, so all over the place, but also in the US.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

That's just incredible.

SPEAKER_02 26:13

So it's great, and it's great fun for me because I learned so much from them. And it's different in that I have to be very cautious about how I might recommend something because it may not fit with their culture. So I so I'll I'll say I have an idea. Can I run it by you? Let me know what you think. How does that sit with you? And if it doesn't sit, well, we move on, we go to something else. And that's the same thing I do in the US too, but I'm more aware of it with the international clients.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

I love that. So as we're coming to a wrap-up here in a couple of minutes, what are some hobbies that you like to work on when you're not coaching and when you're not out there on LinkedIn or writing memos and messages?

SPEAKER_02 27:01

Well, okay, so I was my husband will tell you that. All right, so I I do watercolors and I enjoy doing that. But since I've been working on hidden metrics, that kind of went to the side. But now the hidden metrics is out. I'm starting up again.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

So you're doing the watercolors.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

Yeah, watercolors. And it's like, you know, I love like animals, painting pictures of deer in the woods and plants, flowers, things like that. And it's just for me. I'm not on a channel.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

No one's gonna see them.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

No, well, he brings them to his office, which is really nice, but he's he's nagging me lately because I haven't given any new ones recently, but I will soon.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

It's it's time to be able to focus on on you and what you like. The books are tremendous, they were really great reads, and I really compliment you for putting them out there. Your coaching business is thriving, it's doing really well, and it's always fun to hear about coaches and leaders and guides that are able to be able to share with such a big smile on your face. And as we come

How To Connect And Next Steps

SPEAKER_00 28:10

to a close here, what's the best way for people to find you?

SPEAKER_02 28:13

Well, they can email me at Nora at MnoraBouchard. And the way to remember that is that I'm one of four girls and we all have the same first name. So it's Nora at MnoraBouchard. So that M is for Mary. Don't type in Mary, just M.

SPEAKER_00 28:33

Very cool.

SPEAKER_02 28:34

And that's the best way to get a hold of me.

SPEAKER_00 28:37

Fantastic. So I'm Chad Coe. I'm your host at Cofinancial Group. We help you retire, stay comfortably retired. We do this through a roadmap, a coaching roadmap, where we talk about your values, your goals, and what's important to you. I love doing this podcast, so please subscribe and like if you're interested. And if you go to the website, cofinancial.com, you could download my book, Your Financial Dream House, for free. And everyone who does seems to love it. There's some exercises in there, and I look forward to your feedback. Nora, thank you so much for being here today. It was absolutely fantastic. I know that people were able to learn a lot from you. So once again, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 29:17

Thanks so much, Chad.